Most parents believe God wants them to raise children who turn out just right. But what if one of God's primary intentions for you as a parent is for you to become more holy? Next time on HAVEN Today, be sure and listen as Gary Thomas joins Charles Morris for part two of a program called "Sacred Parenting".


Title: Sacred Parenting w/Gary Thomas (Pt. 2)

When it comes to raising children most parents want to make sure their kids turn out right but there is another more important side. I'm Charles Morris and welcome to Haven Today where in the next few minutes we will joined again today by best selling author Gary Thomas. Gary suggests that one of God’s primary concerns is that the parents turn out right by becoming more holy. This is a program called Sacred Parenting, parenting in the way that’s a school for spiritual formation - first for the parents, then for the kids. Don't go away, let's open know with the music of Haven as we worship the Lord:

Song: In This Thing Together

You are back with Haven Today and I'm Charles Morris where we're talking about parenting. Not just any kind of parenting but sacred parenting. With us at the studio Kari radio in Blaine Washington, which serves British Columbia and also northwest Washington, is my friend in ministry and brother in the Lord, Gary Thomas. Gary, thank you for joining us again:

(Gary) Charles thank you for asking me.

(Charles) I am so glad that you and I were able to spend one session with each other and as you were driving off in your minivan I could tell that you have a very busy life. You also are used by God to do seminars in a lot of places and you are quite a prolific writer. Earlier in your career after you got out of seminary studying under JI Packer, you actually helped Chuck Colson write for a commentary program he has called Breakpoint. So you did the east-coast thing for a while didn’t you?

(Gary) I did, and it was a joy to work on those commentaries. I have a great respect for Chuck Colson.

(Charles) Absolutely. We have had him here on the program giving his testimony on how God literally broke him by sending him to jail. God has to do that to all of us, doesn’t he, even as parents. You have this book that has meant so much to me, Sacred Parenting - How raising children shapes our souls. Raising kids, we talked about yesterday, is not just so much a list of do's-and-don'ts but it's a growing thing and it starts by growing in the Lord. Is sacred parenting child centered or God centered?

(Gary) I believe that is one of the most fundamental things we need to get our hands around, and that is that sacred parenting has to be God centered otherwise we are going to loose our motivation. A verse I shared yesterday, II Corinthians 7:1 ends with parenting out of reverence for God. One of the ways that’s hit in my own life is; I got back quite late from traveling on one Sunday evening, actually it was early Monday morning, I hadn’t seen my oldest daughter all weekend because I had been gone. I decided if I got up early after having about four hours of sleep I could drive her into her private school and we could talk and catch-up along the way. But it was a Monday morning and my early adolescent daughter was in a early adolescence sort of mood and though she is usually very gracious and very fun to be with I could not get a word out of her. So for twenty-five minutes it was an exercise in futility and as we pulled up to the school, and I would say that Alyson might be my most grateful child out of the three, yet she got out of the car without a thank you and without a good-by and she walked off.

(Charles) That hurt, didn’t it?

(Gary) Well it did. If I was a child-centered parent my response would be, “forget this, if this is the response that I’m going to get, next weekend I’m going to sleep in and play golf!” But if I am a God-centered parent I know that God calls me to be involved in my daughter's life and to know what's going on with her and to be there for her as much as I can be. If I do it out of reverence for God and God is always worthy to be revered then I'm going to keep approaching my children because it's not about what they bring to me it's about being faithful to the God who has loved me and saved me and has called me to raise these children on his behalf.

(Charles) What I’m hearing is something that your friend C. J. Mahaney who pastors in Gaithersburg Maryland calls gospel-centered-parenting. There really is a difference, isn't there, in a more grace-centered approach to viewing parenting than just tell me what to do give me the list of things and now I’ll try to do it. You can’t do it apart from God.

(Gary) It’s more relational. I wrote a devotion in a book called Devotions for Sacred Parenting where the title was ‘Bring the Boy To Me’. Jesus said when a child was sick, he just said to them, “bring the boy to me”. That has been the image for me with parenting. Jesus is saying to me, “Gary, bring the girl – bring the boy to me”. And my life is center around the highest goal more than I care about the academic achievement, the sporting accomplishments, the wealth that they may come into or don't come into, ultimately I want each one of them to stand before the Lord one day and hear him say, “Well done my good and faithful servant, enter into, go rest.”

(Charles) Gary, there is something about this, well, not necessarily the worst-case scenario - it's a scenario a lot of us and myself have done; you get a call at 5:30 in the morning and it's the police and they have one of your kids and your kid is in jail. You go down there and in my case here I am in the ministry and I have to identify myself. Anytime I identify myself, especially where I live, people might know who I am or they might know what I do. That happens a lot and it can be the most embarrassing point of my life. But that shows again where my heart is going and where my heart is in the wrong place and that's not the way Jesus approaches it.

(Gary) There is a story from The Old Testament that really inspires me. When you look at The Old Testament I believe you have to look not only at what the story is saying but why God put it in there. If God counted every story of David for instance, the whole Bible would be about David. I think of the rebellion of Absalom which is a rather sorted story where here is a man who stole David’s kingdom and slept publicly with a concubine. He hunted David down like a dog to kill him. David is forced to flee and to go off and defend himself. When David sent his commanders out to defend himself against Absalom’s army, David's son, he says, “go easy on the young man Agsalom – he may be a trader to you but he is still my son”. Then the victorious forces of David send a messenger back to tell David how it went, and the listeners need to understand this, when David was watching this messenger come up, he is about to find out; 1) whether he still has a kingdom because if his forces have lost then his kingdom is gone, and, 2) whether he is going to be alive the next morning because if his army has lost Absalom’s forces will be right behind him and David isn’t going to live. There is no way he could defend himself. And yet the messenger comes up and David’s first question is this; “is the young man Absalom safe?” Not, “do I still have a kingdom? Am I still going to be alive?” It’s, “How are things with my son?” And when I read that story I think, why does God have that story in the Bible and it's because of this; I believe God loves us like David loves Absalom. They might embarrass us, they might rebel against us, they might do things that just make our heart cringe but ultimately it’s that love of God - loving them out of reverence for God and regardless of what they do our first concern is for their welfare and their well-being.

(Charles) And you only have to look as far as the New Testament than as well to where God our Father waits for us. It doesn't matter what we've done he's there for us. He's looking for us and he wants us to come back. No matter the pigsty we've gotten ourselves into. No matter how we've turned our inheritance into something of a sham.

(Gary) Charles, when we look at it – God knows every vile thought we have ever had. He has heard every harsh word we've ever committed. He knows the desires of our heart and yet he loves us, and what ever we see in our kids it won’t measure up to what God has forgiven us.

(Charles) Amen. Gary you have three kids don’t you?

(Gary) I do, three teenagers!

(Charles) Oh no! Gram is in the middle, you’ve got Allison who you just mentioned to us who is the oldest and there in the studio you have Kelsy. I’m going to see if she can tell us something in a minute. But she has figured into your tutelage on God teaching you how to parent hasn’t she?

(Gary) Well I’ve see the passage of time. We took a picture out on the Manassas battlefield which it out in Northern Virginia about 11 years ago and they were seven, five and two at the time. I’ve seen that picture in the house, my wife has it somewhere and I went back there about a year or two ago and I was walking by the bridge and just reminiscing. I came across that same spot where we did that Christmas picture and my heart just stopped because I remember thinking where did those ten years ago! I couldn't believe it! As I sat there on the stone bridge literally crying over this, and I am not a big crier, I remember thinking, when was the last time I carried Kelsy because her little legs where too tired? She was twelve years old at the time and I just thought, it happened so subtlety that my last child doesn’t need me to carry her any more, and so I came home from that trip and I said, “Hey Kelsy, can I carry you through the mall just one last time?” Well you can imagine what a twelve year old thought, rolling her eyes at me, but it really dawned on me and I would say that to the parents that are out there who are listening today – it goes by so fast! It seems slow as you have your hands full with diapers and cleaning up spit-up and carrying the diaper bags everywhere, but it just flies by and you will look back on those years sooner than you can believe and just wonder if those little things like your arms being tired how you wish you still had a child to carry.

(Charles) You are going to make me cry Gary. Well, Kelsy is that daughter. Kelsy is in the studio with us right now. Kelsy, you are thirteen years old and we have been talking to your dad for the last couple of days and he just shared with us this story about asking if he could carry you through the mall there in Bellingham Washington one last time. I can't see you so did you roll your eyes at him one more time or did you kind of like that, your dad saying, “hey could I carry you, my little girl, one more time?”

(Kelsy) Well, it’s kind of nice because you know he just wants to always be with you and do whatever he can for you but the image of carrying me through the mall is just crazy.

(Charles) Yes, it’s hard being the baby of the family too, isn’t it sometimes?

Kelsy) Yeah.

(Charles) Do you ever get mad at your dad?

(Kelsy) Uh, yeah. I couldn’t imagine going through my teenage years without getting mad.

(Charles) Well, you have a few more to go through. But when you get mad at your dad and you let him know that you are mad at him, does he get mad back at you?

(Kelsy) Well, most of the time he doesn’t. He tries to figure out why I am mad at him. Sometime I don’t exactly have a reason, I just want to mad at someone.

(Charles) (laughing) Who needs a reason to be mad, that’s right.

(Kelsy) I think most of the time he doesn’t.

(Charles) Ok, now that you are thirteen years old, how does your dad love you?

(Kelsy) Well I think he sort of shows his love to all us kids by, well….he travels a lot and I know it is a sacrifice on his part because he misses out on a lot so he can support us. He takes us out to lunch and stuff and always tries to spend time with us when he comes home, you know, he just cares for us, you can always tell because he wants to spend time with us.

(Charles) That’s great. He sounds like a fun dad. Your dad talks a lot about - kids growing up teach their parents – he also talks about how to be sacred parents. Do you think sometimes Kelsy that you are able to show the love of Jesus to your dad and to your mom?

(Kelsy) Well, sometimes I probably help them to exercise Jesus’ love by testing their patience.

(Charles) Do you ever forgive your parents when they need to be forgiven?

(Kelsy) Yeah I do, I mean everybody kind of has to forgive people all the time or we would all be mad at each other.

(Charles)That’s right. Kelsy thank you for going with your dad into the studio and speaking to someone you have never met before. I just want to wish the blessings of Jesus on you, ok?

(Kelsy) Ok.

(Charles) Thank you Kelsy.

(Gary) Charles I just want to say that Kelsy is unusually gifted at showing her love for us. I have got cards and letter that make me cry just listening to her affirmation of us.

(Charles) Gary I think that came through. Gary Thomas has been with us on the program here for a second day and his daughter Kelsy was with us today as well. Talking about how to be a sacred parent and it's all because of Jesus. That's what we keep coming back to in fact our theme on Haven Today is a telling The Great Story; it's all about Jesus. Wouldn't you say that's true as well of sacred parenting?

(Gary) In Malachi 2, there is this famous passage that we often apply to divorce about how God hates divorce. But when you look at the end of that passage you find out why God hates divorce, it says this, “Has not the Lord made them one, in flesh and spirit they are one? Because he was seeking godly offspring”. Now godly offspring isn’t the only purpose behind marriage, but clearly it’s a major purpose behind God’s desire for godly marriages. Charles, I think of all that God has done for me, to save me in my rebellion, to turn me from the destructive habits that we all have, to give me hope and a future and purpose and mission. For him to say in return, Gary will you consciously love these kids so that they will become godly offspring, servants in my kingdom and as you do that I want to bless them with a lifetime of being in relationship with me and giving them an eternity of experiencing the joys I have before them.

It is an exciting life. There is nothing more significant that any of us will ever do then being able to usher these children, flesh of our flesh, bone of our bone, into an eternal destiny of joy with Jesus Christ.

(Charles) There really is, I think you've even said this, a holy potential in a parent-child relationship and Gary thank you for exhibiting that for us and also for having Kelsey on our program as well. Gary we have parents listening, parents who are troubled, parents who need a real full measure of the Lord in their hearts to be sacred parents, would you lead us in prayer?

(Gary) Father I pray that you would open up every parent’s heart to you. Parenting will try us like nothing else. It can make us angrier than we ever have been before. It can make us more afraid than ever before. Lord, we need you and we need your presence, we need the reality of who you are to fill our hearts so that we can be the type of people who can influence others to know you and to love you. Open up our hearts Lord to receive you fully to give you every area of our heart; those attitudes, those emotions, those actions that may not be fully surrendered to you yet Lord. We pray that we would be empowered by you to complete the task you've given us that we might present you godly offspring. That me might bring the boy and bring the girl and lay them at your feet as an offering for all that you have done for us. Lord we pray with great thankfulness because you have given us mercy upon mercy and we will be indebted to you for all eternity in Jesus name we pray, Amen.

(Charles) Thank you Gary for leading us in prayer. This is Haven Today and this is part two of a series called Sacred Parenting with Gary Thomas. We have really enjoyed having him on the program with us the last two days. Often as a parent I’ve wondered and wanted someone to just give me that perfect formula. Give me those seven simple steps and if I could just follow those steps then my children would turn out the right way. Well as I said yesterday we need to just dream on because it doesn't work out that way. For Christians it's important to see that God uses our children to bring us closer to him. The school of learning starts with the parents before it ever gets to the kids and in the long-term if we turn to God first and learn from him and discover his holiness then that will affect the holy way we go about raising her children. We have a wonderful book by Gary Thomas called Sacred Parenting; How raising children shapes our souls. I would like you to have a copy for yourself or for someone else, maybe even your church library. And for your gift to Haven Ministries we will include a free CD with the two programs with Gary Thomas from yesterday and today. You can also call us at 1-800-65HAVEN, that’s 1-800-654-2836 and if you would like to learn more about Sacred Parenting; how raising children shapes our souls, you can go online at haventoday.org. You can get a copy of the book and make your gift to support Haven Today. If you really would like to spend more time with the Lord every day in the word and in prayer and you've never seen a copy of our daily devotional guide called Anchor I'd like to send you a copy. You can do that by going to haventoday.org and ask for that sample issue of the Anchor devotional guide. Our mailing address is:

Haven Ministries Haven Ministries
P.O. Box 79997 Box 6800
Riverside, CA 92513 Vancouver, BC V6B 4C9

Tomorrow we will be talking about the struggles of parenting and how it can become a spiritual enlightening time.

I’m Charles Morris, thank you for being with me. Please come back again tomorrow when we share The Great Story; it’s all about Jesus together here on Haven Today.