November 2, 2006

Heaven & Hell…And Everything in Between (Part 2)

Welcome to Haven Today. I’m Charles Morris with part 2 of a series called, “Heaven & Hell…and Everything in Between”. “Heaven endures. It is real. It is the most real experience of my life. So it was magnificent, I can’t wait to go back.” Reverend Don Piper, author of “90 Minutes in Heaven” describing what happened to him when he was pronounced dead but came back to life. We live in a world of skeptics. In fact, the Harris’s poll yesterday reported that almost half of Americans are not sure God exists. 3 years ago only 34% were not absolutely certain God is there. In a few minutes we’ll be joined by biblical scholars from Liberty University in Virginia and Biola University in California. Later I’ll tell you how to get a copy of the Southern Baptist pastor, Don Piper’s book, “90 Minutes in Heaven” as well as a CD series of the programs we’re doing these few days on what the scripture teaches about what we cannot see with human eyes. Our internet address is haventoday.org. Our telephone number is 1-800-654-2836. Now let’s begin. Amick Byram begins our time together with words by another Baptist pastor, Isaac Watts.

Song: When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
Performed by: Amick Byram

Some of the most important words ever penned outside of scripture, “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross” by Reverend Isaac Watts and sung on Haven Today by Christian musician Amick Byram. We’re spending 3 days on a series called, “Heaven & Hell…and Everything in Between”. Not everyone believes in Heaven, much less Hell. That’s because many aren’t even sure God exists. The new Harris Poll out yesterday shows the trend continuing and almost half of Americans are now not sure that God exists. As to whether God controls events on earth, on 29% believe that to be the case. The Bible says only the fool believes there is no God and it speaks of a longing or a yearning on the part of believers in Jesus for Heaven. Here’s how the Apostle Paul put it in 2 Corinthians 5, “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in Heaven, not build with human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling.” 2 Corinthians 5:1 and 2. And it’s later in that same passage that we’re told that when a believer is absent from the body they are right then present with the Lord. Yesterday two conservative biblical scholars said on this program they think it’s quite plausible that Reverend Don Piper, a Southern Baptist pastor from Houston, Texas died and went to Heaven for 90 minutes and then the Lord called him back for another season of service. We heard biblical evidence that it was possible from our 2 scholars. A few weeks ago we had Don Piper on this program and I asked him, when you got to Heaven, what did you see?
DP: My grandfather’s face. I had been with him when he died and it was a great, great loss for me. We were very close. And yet there at the gates of Heaven the first person I saw, the first thing I saw was his face and I knew exactly where I was because I knew where he was and I was at home in Heaven. And it was glorious to say the very least. Heaven is my reality now. Here on earth, having come back here, I realize how temporal this is. I mean, people are listening or driving their cars, they’re sitting in their homes or maybe their workplaces, one of these days that place where they are will be gone. One of these days they will be gone, but Heaven endures. It is real. It’s the most real experience of my life. So it was magnificent. I can’t wait to go back there.
Don Piper talking with us on Haven Today and talking about what he first saw after being in a horrific traffic accident on a rain slick road in Texas. On the line with us from Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia is Dr. Gary Habermas. He’s the distinguished research professor of apologetics and philosophy. Gary, what does the Bible teach about Heaven?
GH: Well, if we go back and look at the teachings of Jesus – by the way, here’s another one, one of the most unique things about Jesus and this makes him stand out in the history of religions – is that his major teaching was about the Kingdom of God and how to get there. Jesus called himself the Son of God, he says what you do with me determines whether you’ll make it to Heaven. Then he says my resurrection will bring this all together and give evidence. We have a nice, neat argument here for Heaven, but one thing that is just so neglected by believers is that Jesus taught that the Kingdom – again his major teaching, the Kingdom of God and how to get there – has 2 phases, phase 1, phase 2. And Christians spend virtually all their time talking about phase 2, the future
CM: And never the first one, right.
GH: And they don’t talk about phase 1. In fact, let me make this even worse, Jesus talks more about phase 1 than he talks about phase 2. And because we don’t know what to do with phase 1 comments, that the Kingdom basically begins, Mark chapter 1 verse 15 he says, he said, “Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand,” that’s his beginning message. We say, wait a minute, at hand, in 28 or 30 AD, “at hand”? I mean, come on it’s almost 2000 years later. But Jesus taught over and over again that the Kingdom of Heaven, as Matthew calls it, the Kingdom of God, stage one breaks into the world’s history with the preaching of Jesus. And so we have some interesting, to some ears strange comments like “the Kingdom of God is at hand,” “Don’t look over here or over there the Kingdom of God is among you,” “If I, by the finger of God cast out demons then know that the Kingdom of God has come.” And then of course the Lord’s Prayer, he prays that it comes more fully.
CM: Right
GH: But where I’m going with this is that Heaven is offered, the Kingdom of God is offered in the words of Jesus that when a person embraces the teachings of Christ and enters the Christian faith they have entered phase one, and of course phase one is out there whether they want to believe it or not. But it’s there and they believe it. Now John, the synoptic Gospels Matthew, Mark and Luke, they talk in terms of the Kingdom of God as present, it’s at hand, it’s among us, it’s here. I think there’s a parallel in John where John says repeatedly that people who trust Jesus “have” eternal life present tense.
CM: Yes
GH: So eternal life starts in the present
CM: Present and continuing, yes.
GH: And it’s not just an idea in John, I mean in Philippians 3 Paul says our citizenship is in Heaven and Peter speaks similarly and we have language in Hebrews 11, sort of this we’re strangers passing through kind of thing. I think all of that, the strangers, the citizens in Heaven, but I mean we’re not in Heaven, but we’re citizens, we’ve got our citizenship papers, eternal life starts now, I think all of those are ideas that belong in stage one of the Kingdom as we look toward the consummation and eternality of stage 2.
CM: Dr. Gary Habermas in Lynchburg, Virginia. Gary, hang on the line with us. We’ll be back to you in a moment. Now to another scholar who we’re with in Biola University in La Mirada, California, Dr. JP Moreland is distinguished professor of philosophy and his newest book is “The Lost Virtue of Happiness” which he wrote with Klaus Issler. JP, we just spoke with your friend Gary Habermas. Let me ask you the same question. What does the Bible teach about Heaven?
JP: The Bible is very, very clear that there is an afterlife and that there is a realm of reality that is called Heaven in which the presence of God is very manifest that those that love him and have come to believe in his dear Son and who have placed their confidence in him and would like to be with God and would like to be around people who love him will have that opportunity. There is also a realm of reality for those who simply will not be in God’s presence and will constantly reject and refuse to embrace his kindness and his mercy. And quite frankly those people hate God so badly that they would be very, very uncomfortable in his presence and around those who love God. But the bottom line is that God is not going to force those people to accept who he is and he will give them what they have asked for, namely themselves. Now Heaven is, I like to think of it as a realm of reality and the Bible uses a lot of visual imagery for that. And it’s very hard to know how much of that imagery to take as literal and how much of it is figurative and the reason that’s so difficult is that visual imagery with respect to God and the afterlife is often figurative.
CM: Thanks JP Moreland here at Biola University. We have been talking with 2 scholars about Heaven, but there is also another place that the scriptures teach and that place you don’t hear a lot about today and you don’t even hear it from pulpits by preachers today and that place of course is the four letter word, Hell. Let’s go back to Gary Habermas in Lynchburg, Virginia. Dr. Habermas, what are the scriptures teach about Hell?
GH: I think for the average reader who doesn’t want to get into philosophy and says, you know, “That stuff gives me a headache,” C.S. Lewis is, you know for some of the ways in which he’s kind of in left field a little bit,
CM: Right.
GH: His book on “The Problem with Pain” and a few other of his books, his famous sermon, “Weight of Glory” is a tremendous thought, by the way a tremendous thought on stage one, but Lewis also does a tremendous amount of defending of the Christian view of Hell. You know he talks about Hell, and he talks about animal pain and he talks about fallen-ness and why should there be pain and evil in the world and you could say that there is a stage one and a stage two of Hell too. We experience pain and suffering right now but sort of like nothing like what’s coming in the future, so , so there’s a need to say things like that but there’s also a need to say that God is just and it’s not just, “oh wow, look how mean God is. Look what he’s making us go through,” it’s more an issue dealing, I think, with our free will and more of an issue dealing with God’s righteousness and how a righteous and just God with the characteristics defined and defended in scripture, God can’t let sin and rebellion just go and not be treated. C.S. Lewis has some great one-liners. Norm Geisler for a, you know, present day evangelical picks up on a lot of these things and you hear things like this, “Hell’s door is locked on the inside,” or “Heaven is for those who say ‘thy will be done’ and Hell is for those who say, ‘my will be done’.” I think the question here is this: what do you do with people who say, “I want it my way not your way”? Now –
CM: They wouldn’t even enjoy Heaven would they?
GH: You know, I think Lewis’ little essay his little fantasy –
CM: “The Great Divorce”
GH: “Great Divorce” yeah.
CM: Yes
GH: It’s a brilliant, brilliant caricature of human nature and how some people, yeah I mean they see the nice things, they can see what’s good about Heaven but they don’t want any part of it. You know, “Good for you. That’s because you’re a loser, you know, you’re a goody-two-shoes. You’re a, I’d rather be over here with my buddies.” And we even say things like that too. You know we say kind of sad thought but people say, “Yeah, I may be going to Hell, but at least I’ll be with my friends.” That’s Lewis’ point, what do you do with people who insist on being with their friends?
CM: And not with their Savior.
GH: I think it’s a (unintelligible) look at theology I know and I don’t believe God twists arms. I think God gives people what they chose.
CM: Thanks Gary. I don’t know that he’s going to differ with you a whole lot, but let’s go back to Dr. JP Moreland. JP, in Southern California at Biola University, what do the scriptures teach about Hell?
JP: The scriptures teach that Hell is a place where God finally shows his respect for the value of human life. let me explain. Suppose you create a person who no matter what you do to come after that person and woo them they simply will not accept you. Then you show respect to that person by saying, “I will not coerce you against your will. I respect your choices.” Even I can’t coerce my wife to make up with me after an argument against her will. That makes her even worse.
CM: Yes.
JP: So I have to, at some point, say, “OK. I’m going to respect your right to differ and whenever you’re ready to talk I’ll wait.” Well, God respects the value of human life so much that if there are people who say, “I will not have anything to do with you,” he respects that. Number 2, God is not going to annihilate those people. He’s not going to snuff them out of existence. Why is -
CM: And that’s not a common thought, but it is thought amongst some Christians.
JP: Right. And the reason God won’t do that is the same reason why God would not believe in active euthanasia. Suppose you have an elderly patient that’s in a coma. It is permissible to let them die, but it is wrong to kill them. Why? Because their value doesn’t come from the quality of their lives, their value comes from the fact that they exist in the image of God. Now take a person in the afterlife. Their quality of life is low, but that doesn’t warrant exterminating them. Why? Because they still have great value because they bear the image of God and God knows that. So if God were to annihilate them he would be snuffing out beings that still bear his image. Now God still regards them as beings with great dignity. So if he can’t reform them and he can’t annihilate them his only alternative is to quarantine them. And Hell is a quarantine. It is a place for people who reject him. It’s a place of judgment where God judges people by banishing them from the very thing they were made to have and that’s life with him. They are separated from the rest of creation so they will not damage the rest of creation. And Hell is not only judgment, which it clearly is, but it is also forever a monument to the dignity of the image of God in people because God will not coerce them against their will or snuff them out of existence. He will sustain them in an admittedly low quality of life but that’s the only way he can respect the image of God made of people. So it is actually a monument to the great dignity of human life that God would preserve them even though it’s a sad situation because their lives have value even though it’s a terrible state of great judgment.
CM: Thanks JP. We’ve got Dr. JP Moreland from Biola University and from Lynchburg, Virginia, Liberty University Dr. Gary Habermas. We’ve been talking about some very heavy stuff, Heaven, Hell, here on Haven Today and I’m going to go back to JP Moreland and ask him to just lead us in prayer.
JP: I’m going to pray a prayer that I prayed years ago where I met Jesus, my first time. Well, let’s pray. Jesus, I’m not sure you’re real, you may be saying, but Jesus if you are real, have mercy on me. I take whatever faith I have right now and I say to you right now, forgive me for what I have done. I thank you that you died on the cross to forgive me and that you are still alive. I want to go to Heaven and be with you when I die. Would you come into my heart right now? Would you forgive me? Would you make me the kind of person you want me to be? And would you take me home to be with you when all this is over? Help me now grow to love you more tomorrow and the next day, amen.

Song: Just As I Am
Performed by: Haven

This is Haven Today and this is probably the most important series that we’ve ever had on this program, at least in the recent past and we’ll be back again tomorrow with part 3 of a series called, “Heaven & Hell…and Everything in Between”. We’ll be joined again by the same 2 scholars, from Liberty University and Biola University, Drs. JP Moreland and Gary Habermas. This, as you know is not an easy topic to discuss neither Heaven nor Hell and you may not get to hear Haven Today every day. And if you’d like to study this more and share it with someone else then may I suggest the CD set that we’ve put together. This series, it’s called, “Heaven & Hell…and Everything in Between” and we are also including Don Piper’s full interview that he had on this program a few weeks back. Three CDs and you can get this important series on an important topic as a thank you for your gift to Haven Today. You can go online and read more about it and make your gift at haventoday.org, that’s haventoday.org. Or you can call us in a moment at 1-800-654-2836, 1-800-654-2836. Maybe you haven’t read the book by Don Piper, “90 Minutes in Heaven” or you’d like to give it to somebody that could sure use it right now. I’ve read it and so have both our scholars that we had on the program today. None of us have found anything that we consider unbiblical in the book. We have “90 Minutes in Heaven” here online, haventoday.org or by calling 1-800-65-HAVEN. One last thing, if you missed our programs this Monday and Tuesday leading into October 31 on “Protecting Your Child from Witchcraft” with Steve Russo, we’ve posted both programs on our website so you can hear them and we also still have his materials, a book for parents and a book for young people with a full description on our website or you can call us on that toll free number. Haven Today, we’re listener supported and I want to thank you for lifting us up in your prayers and offering your financial support. Would you come back again tomorrow when together we’ll share the great story that’s all about Jesus here on Haven Today?